Friday, December 31, 2004

Greetings from Santa Cruz

Just hanging out this afternoon with friends here on California's beautiful Central Coast, where it has been raining just about non-stop since I arrived. What a terrific vacation. And then I get to go home to Los Angeles on Monday and start my new video store job. 2005, here I come!

I'm just being curmudgeonly because my three more musically-inclined friends have been downstairs attempting to play "I Am The Walrus" on a set of acoustic guitars for about the past hour, and I'm getting a bit tired of hearing Aaron screech the part about custard dripping from a dead dog's eye over and over again. But the feeling will pass. Tonight, we're headed to the San Francisco area for a bit of New Year's celebrating and whatnot, but there really isn't anything more exciting than that to report, I'm afraid.

Oh, yeah, there was one more thing to talk about. I got a very intriguing comment on my previous "bestiality" post from the same guy who informed me that the word is spelled "bestiality" as opposed to "beastiality." He goes by mynym, in case you're interested.

Anyway, in response to my declaration of opposition to sex with animals on the basis of consent, here's what mynym had to say:

Consent cannot be the real reason that you want to keep that sexual taboo, given what is done to animals without their consent. I.e., hunting, butchering, etc.

It's certainly a unique argument...If you extend it far enough, it states that carniverous people by definition have no rational basis for opposing animal cruelty. You approve of killing animals for food, therefore you approve of doing anything you please to an animal.

The idea of animals consenting to something like "hunting" is also amusing to me. Kind of defeats the purpose of hunting, if you're going to have to ask for permission from your prey. Like, "Well, Mr. Deer, I'd really like to shoot you this afternoon. If I could just get you to sign this consent form...Oh, you have no opposable thumbs. And you don't speak English. Well, how about you just make a mark with your antlers?"

He also implies that I hold certain moral values merely because they are commonly acceptable, and that he's insightful whereas I am closed-minded, which is always appreciated. That's the fun of having a blog, really. Not getting any comments in response to your constant posting, except for the occasional philosopher who swings by to inform you that you're ill-informed.

Unfortunately, mynym's main argument, though appealing in its casual dismissal of commonly-held moral conceits, makes little sense. I'm okay with raising and slaughtering cows to provide hungry people with a meal, sure. Would I be in favor of slowly torturing this cow for several hours until it finally died from pain and fatigue? Of course not.

There is a big difference between finding the consumption of animal flesh acceptable and finding the torture of animals acceptable, and having sex with an animal against its will would certainly classify as torture. Or, at the very least, we consider it torture if you do it to a human being.

Certainly, mynym is aware of this, which just leads me to wonder if he is playing Devil's Advocate. I mean, I like beef and pork and chicken a lot, but that doesn't mean I think it's okay to cruelly gratify one's sexual urges on a helpless living creature.

So, that's something (albeit something unpleasant) to think about this lazy afternoon while I wait to ring in the New Year. It beats listening to my guitar-happy companions, who have now switched over to "Come Together."

14 comments:

mynym said...

I did not say that you are ill-informed. Who is informed about such things, anyway? Only philosophers....yet that is changing.

Note, consent was not the reason that you want to keep that sexual taboo. At least, that consent is not the issue is what you are saying now. Instead, you are saying that bestiality is wrong because it is like torture for animals.

Peter Singer notes that as long as bestiality is pleasurable or not torture for both, it is okay. On this, he argues that sex with cows should not be taboo but sex with cats should be.

I am trying to find the real reason that you want to keep this sexual taboo. It's always interesting to see people try to explain their moral intuitions.

Neither the issue of torturing animals nor the issue of consent actually save the taboo. Zoophiles can believe in specieism like homophiles believe in sexism, another discrimination...
"...Singer believes that humans do give less consideration to nonhuman animals and he labels this concept "specieism."
'Specieism' is defined by Singer as 'a prejudice or
attitude of bias in favor of the interests of members
of one's own species and against those of members
of other species.'"
(Whittier Law Review. Fall, 1995
17 Whittier L. Rev. 145
NOTE AND COMMENT: THE INADEQUATE PROTECTION OF
ANIMALS AGAINST CRUEL ANIMAL HUSBANDRY PRACTICES UNDER
UNITED STATES LAW
By Nicole Fox)

Lons said...

There is complete consistancy in my argument. Bestiality is wrong because you cannot gain consent from an animal, in order to have sex with it. And consent is an important issue because sex without consent is a cruel, painful act.

You don't think a cow would mind if a person started having sex with it? How about if you didn't use lube? I wouldn't know...maybe you're right...why don't you go give it a whirl and report back to me.

And, just as a personal aside, I'd cut out your condescending "I am trying to find the real reason that you want to keep this sexual taboo. It's always interesting to see people try to explain their moral intuitions" line. It makes you sound really pompous.

mynym said...

"You don't think a cow would mind if a person started having sex with it?"

I think that you do not have a real reason.

I am only looking for the reason.

No, a cow does not necessarily mind if a person has sex with it. That is why Peter Singer argues that sex with cows is okay whereas sex with cats is not.

A cow may mind if it is killed, yet that is not illegal. Indeed, it is not illegal for a farmer to butcher a cow in a way that the cow certainly does mind. Or to castrate a bull, etc...

Again, what is the real reason that you want to keep that sexual taboo?

It's a simple question.

mynym said...

"Stop having sex with your pets you damn freak."

I believe in that sexual taboo. Yet, I know why I do.

The interesting thing is that you fellows apparently do not know why and cannot give a sound argument for something so obvious.

Perhaps you are not very good at this thinking stuff. It can be so...difficult.

Lons said...

Wow, man, wow. You're a real asshole.

I was trying to be nice, so as not to alienate one of my regular readers, but I can't just let this go. You've come here repeatedly and tried to insult me, my blog and my intelligence, and I just won't stand for it any more.

You're not smart, okay? You've read a few books, and that's great. More Americans should try it. But just being able to quote obscure articles does not mean that you are more intelligent than anyone else, and it certainly doesn't give you the right to express your misplaced sense of superiority on my blog.

Basically, I have been having a one-sided argument with you for weeks now on this topic, and I'm sick of it. I've answered your question multiple times.

Why do I think bestiality is wrong?

It is cruel.

Why is it cruel?

Because an animal cannot provide consent to be used as a sexual device.

Why is it more cruel than eating beef?

Because, presumably, we slaughter cows in a humane manner to provide nourishment. If the methods used for butchering cows is unneccessarily cruel, I would be in favor of altering it. I would even be willing to pay a bit more for beef that was slaughtered in a safe, humane fashion. Don't believe that there is a difference between murdering something humanely and cruelly torturing something? Talk to the US government.


Honestly, I don't think there's any more to say on this topic, and it has been weeks since you've added any interesting insights. You seem content to reference one article over and over again, while repeating your initial claim that you know why bestiality is wrong but I don't, ad infinitum until the end of time, but I'm bored. Why not check out some of the other articles on here or something? There's plenty of topics to pick apart.

mynym said...

"Why do I think bestiality is wrong?

It is cruel.

Why is it cruel?

Because an animal cannot provide consent to be used as a sexual device.

Why is it more cruel than eating beef?

Because, presumably, we slaughter cows in a humane manner to provide nourishment.
"

Singer argues that it is possible to have sex with a cow in a humane manner. Also, the simple fact is that bulls do not "consent" to be castrated and so on.

Why do I continue on something that you apparently can't answer but do intuitively know without knowing why?

It is because I think it is a telling commentary on the American mind. So on the one hand we have Peter Singer a mainstream Havard professor being a moral degenerate and yet a normal American cannot answer him.

This is troubling. I take it that you have given up. That is unfortunate.

mynym said...

I have read some of the rest of your blog, by the way. I do not have the time to comment on everything.

Later.

mynym said...

At any rate, on a blog, you need some controversy.

Lons said...

I don't care what Singer argures. And I don't care that he went to Harvard. Credentials don't make him correct.

Frankly, I'm not convinced by the argument of one person, particularly when they're just blurted back at me ad infinitum. I sense that you continue this argument merely because you like to argue. You haven't made a single original point in this entire thread. All you do when I respond is reply what Singer initially said, and then accuse me of not taking up the question, which I have, repeatedly.

Like I said, I'm basically over this topic. Feel free to continue posting elsewhere, but I'm tempted to stop responding here...

mynym said...

That's fine. I just wanted to know what you thought.

I think that zoophilia which manifests as bestiality is wrong because it is unnatural. Someone like Singer believes that Nature is all there is. Therefore, actually everything is natural and we just make up some rules to suit ourselves.

Without saying that it is unnatural I do not believe that anyone can answer him. At least, I have not seen an answer. And I mean no offense, but your answers can be deconstructed. They have holes in them. You cannot condemn zoophilia or bestiality per se based on your arguments.

You can play the Devil's advocate against my argument if you like. Here is the thing, it applies to zoophilia, pedophilia, necrophilia and other things that most people want to keep sexual taboos on, all in the same way, per se. In themselves, they are wrong because of the perversion of the true version of natural categories. So they are referred to as perversions.

However, homophilia is also unnatural in this context, by Natural Law. In America, that is one sexual taboo that more and more people are going against. And as they do, other sexual taboos are shaken a little. It was, of course, pretty much unheard of to even speak of bestiality a few decades ago.

Yet now, here we are.

Later....

Lons said...

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. This has officially become a conversation, and for that, I am enormously appreciative.

I agree with you, that bestiality is unnatural. This is why most human beings have an innate reaction to it, just as we do with incest or necrophilia.

But how can anyone rationally defend an idea like "natural" or "unnatural." These are amorphous concepts open to interpretation. And even forming a theory of "natural behavior" vs. "unnatural behavior" fuels the sort of intolerance we regrettably have in America right now. The "violation of nature" argument is certainly the most popular with the anti-gay crowd, and was the rallying cry of people who opposed interracial dating only a few generations ago (okay, a generation ago).

We can't. So your concept of why bestiality is wrong has at least as many holes in mine. I'd say more, but I guess I'm not right all of the time. Just most of the time.

mynym said...

"But how can anyone rationally defend an idea like "natural" or "unnatural." These are amorphous concepts open to interpretation."

You would have to begin with a rationale for rationality. If you believe that Nature is all there is then it is has to be like an eternal processor. And
"you" are just caught up in its process. You are not even really distinct from it. Rather, you'd be inside the ratios that make for the rational. But you would not be aware of any rationales for anything, just more processing. And you cannot know "concepts" or some Platonic world of the Forms, either. You would put the perceptual before the conceptual. All of this would be logical or rational if you were in and of Nature, caught in its processes.

I cannot see how you'd have a rationale for rationality, as you'd only have rationalizations about it. You would be in a constant state of rationalization. That is, finding reasons in the processes of Nature for something. It's the same thing you do when you rationalize behavior.

On the other hand, there is Natural Law. This is the philosophy that is based on and believes in self-evident truths, mainly based on basic natural categories and typology. "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are...."

All men, by virtue of being men, etc. It is not just want comes naturally by Nature. But what is natural by the Creator of Nature.

"And even forming a theory of "natural behavior" vs. "unnatural behavior" fuels the sort of intolerance we regrettably have in America right now."

What intolerance is that?

"The 'violation of nature' argument is certainly the most popular with the anti-gay crowd, and was the rallying cry of people who opposed interracial dating only a few generations ago (okay, a generation ago)."

Yes, yet one false argument about supposed natural categories or typology does not refute all natural categories and typology. I.e., children are not adults, life is not death, men are not women, etc. These categorical distinctions and the discrimination based on them is not necessarily invalid just because once someone made some incorrect judgments about natural categories.

Actually, the main argument of civil rights with respect to racism was based on a correction to Natural Law type thinking, in which all men are created equal. For instance, what was done with respect to racism is a blurring of the distinction between human and animal. These basic natural categories were blurred.

Once could argue that blurring the basic natural categories of men and women is "like" the racist argument that blurrs natural categories between human and animal. The civil rights movement was about standing up to this blurring. It's strange that it should be turned into a way to do away with Natural Law now.

In the end, the argument that you are making was created for its emotional punch and associative link for emotional conditioning.

"Needless to say, this formulation [of the argument]
is clearly not designed to persuade one's opponents. It is a subtle way of telling people that they are no different than a bunch of Jim Crow racists, and ought to be ashamed of themselves - so ashamed that they should get out of the way and leave the definition of marriage to the courts."
(12 BYU J. Pub. L. 201 1998
Playing The Loving Card: Same-Sex
Marriage and the Politics of Analogy
By David Orgon Coolidge)

Well, I still believe in Natural Law. But you are welcome to try to refute it.

mynym said...

"So your concept of why bestiality is wrong has at least as many holes in mine."

I do not believe that a concept gets holes in it by a political argument or pragmatic thinking.

Rather, I believe that concepts are true in themselves and then should shape political argument.

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